Ban duration Options

[Babadiboopy]

So I got banned yesterday for retaliating against another TKer. Which is technically against the rules but since there was no admin online at the time and vote kicks did not work I felt I had no choice. Once an admin did get online and I reported the issue I got banned while the TKer who started it all surprisingly enough was not. The backwards logic behind this reasoning boggles the mind. However I do not really want to debate this, but if you could please use this 0 tolerance policy against people who actually start fights in the future that would be great.

I just wanted to ask how long I have been banned from the archer limit server. I can join the other ones but fighting 9-12 archers instead of 4 is something I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy

[TurboMidget]

The duration of the ban is usually up to the admin who gave the ban or otherwise Monkeyfiend. Unfortunately this isn't the first time your name has come up, so I'm not sure if the ban will be lifted anytime soon.

And you were such a nice guy when I was online less than an hour before

[Babadiboopy]

I'm sure it has More often than not I tend to be a nice guy. I am however an opinionated person who tends to call people out on their BS, admins and trolls alike. I do believe that in doing so that I have not been unreasonable (except for the archer = coward thing maybe , but that was just banter really) but feel free to argue otherwise.

I just value my free time and like to have fun in this game. As such I have a very low tolerance for people who intentionally ruin the fun and time of others. Especially on large servers like yours the amount of people who troll is fairly high. I am not talking about accidental friendly fire, I know that happens.

And let's face it, kicking people in this game is nearly impossible. Unless someone has 50-100% friendly fire chances are people just vote no for whatever reason. Especially the clever trolls are impossible to kick. People who just enjoy being a dick, but do it in such a way that they will never be kicked. Like the guy yesterday.

The minute you announced your departure from the server I thought to myself "this can only go wrong xD" and it did. He was one of those people who enjoys kicking people off ledges causing a ton of damage (hillside red spawn) or plain killing them (hillside second spawn bridge). He did both. His friendly fire percentage was low so kicking did not work, and you as only admin had just left. He started it, I killed him, he killed me. Annoying but that seemed to be the end of it. But no after 5min of doing nothing he still felt the need to kill me twice more. By then deadcandance was online so I thought I'd try it your way by reporting him, and I am sad to say you made me regret it. After a really irrational argument I got kicked while my friend told me the guy who actually started all this was not xD I get kicked for retaliating while the instigator is not, the sheer lack of logic behind this must be clear to any person with half a brain.

I have spend most of my time on your servers, and in an average game there are no issues at all. I rarely get more than 3-4% FF with tons of kills so there is little cause for hate from that angle. I understand why the rule against retaliating is there, to serve as a backup to avoid discussions where needed. However I feel that more often than not it is used against people who just want to have fun.

That was more than I meant to type but you get the gist, kinda rushed it so apologies for any mistakes.

[TurboMidget]

I'm afraid this is still the internet and with a cap of 50 players, we're bound to attract some lunatics, both the good and the bad kind. I had to learn to ignore most of 'm when I first became admin. Somewhat challenging at first, but you get used to it.

As for the arguments, again it's something I had to learn. The best way to deal with those seems to be to state your case as short as possible and then stop talking and ignore them if they refuse to listen. Most of 'm run out of steam quite fast.

The rule against retaliating (well, teamkill rule in general) is there specifically to avoid these kinds of situations. I understand it's tempting to hit back but in the long run nothing good can come of it.

I'm still unsure how long the ban will remain in place. I'll throw it in the group once people start returning from their vacations, but I don't think it's wise to get your hopes up. You've made quite a name for yourself over these past few months

[Muk]

Remember not to get caught up on this one occasion because as turbo says your name has come up before and it's not really got anything to do with team killing.

It's hard to make a call on who should be kick/banned and was it by accidental or on purpose when the only evidence is people arguing over it. Also remember the admins are doing it voluntarily its not a job we can focus on 100% because we are playing along side everyone else so we cant watch whats going on amongst our own team sometimes let alone all 50 players.

Bearing that in mind it doesn't help when you (and sometimes henk) start insulting people and telling admins what they should be doing and how they should be doing it because I'm never going to start handing out kick/bans to everyone you and henk get annoyed at trying to vote kick/argue with, I hope no one else does either.

Personally i started to ignore you and henk a long time ago and i only kick/ban those who truly deserve it or i catch them doing it.

One last point, some people are actually quite bad at the game and can easily get 20% + team damage, I'm not going to penalize them for being a bad player unless you can tell they are doing it on purpose. That includes archers.

[TurboMidget]

One last point, some people are actually quite bad at the game and can easily get 20% + team damage, I'm not going to penalize them for being a bad player unless you can tell they are doing it on purpose. That includes archers.

To add to this, help them out and give them some tips if you notice they're doing dumb stuff by accident/because they don't know any better. Swallow that frustration and become mister nice guy. Calling everyone sweetheart or love for example really helps me to keep calm and hold at least some perspective of things

[Babadiboopy]

Haha I was already afraid Henk's name would come up xD While our opinions are often the same he kinda lacks subtlety and rationality to convey his point properly. On many occasions he has undermined my arguments with his rage. If you would read our arguments separately you'd see that. Since that is too much to ask while playing the game yourself I do not blame you for lumping our comments together, but it does not make your opinion of me accurate either.

As for the team damage, it's a matter of opinion and I respect that. I think having 20% friendly fire is ludicrous, and vote yes on 10% or more without even thinking about it twice. I have voiced my opinion on this before, being new to the game is a >reason< to be careful and not an >excuse< to be reckless. However these are not the people I end up in fights with, I will try to kick someone who hits me multiple times throughout a game but if the vote fails that's fine. Seems reasonable to me and I do not feel this the issue here.

There would have been a time where I would not even bother to argue against a ban (2-4 months ago). I called people out on shit too often, but always stopped when asked by admins and I don't believe I have even ever gotten a kick. More often than not its actually not the person I am arguing with who gets annoyed but some irrelevant third party, who then proceeds to escalate the debate/banter out of proportion.

Regardless, I have not even played the game for well over a month. And since I returned last week I have pretty much dropped all the crap I used to do since I play this more casually now. Sure I will still enter discussions (like the floorsniffing thing) but I have been behaving generally. This is why this particular ban came as such a surprise to me. Unless there is some sort of personal issue still lingering from months ago I simply can not grasp the logic behind this current ban.

Like I said I like debates so excuse this major derail once again
Just knowing how long I have been banned from the archer limit server would be great guys, after playing the normal 50man I do miss it.

[Muk]

Don't worry about Henk i have seen you insult players and admins without his help and I wish i could show you some of the things you have said in the past. Although i do agree, as of late it's more Henk trying to stir trouble with his comments. I also agree that it's more often the third party that gets annoyed by the arguing.

The person that banned you could put their reasoning into this ban (Deadcandance) and what he wishes to do but i can tell you that it is from past issues on top of this recent one (which does seem minor compared to the things in the past).

The ban is probably permanent until Deadcandance changes it or someone else like Monkey, Jen or Meowric step in instead with their views. Not seen much activity from them for a while, maybe having too much fun or too much work over Easter, i know Monkey is on holiday but that's all.

[TurboMidget]

From what I've read and know, the ban can be seen as permanent for some time at least. We do kinda see the server as our little baby and it's infuriating to see people being mean in there. An apology to the server and admins in general would help your case a bit.

That being said, I wouldn't count on getting a chance to be unbanned within a period of at least 1 to 2 months. You weren't very nice at times (though I do applaud the fact you were willing to be reasonable when I was online) and that still deserves some punishment. I wouldn't rule out a revision of this ban come this June or so, but it would probably be a probationary thing.

On a side note: I call shotgun on probationary officer. Now gimme my batton!

[Babadiboopy]

Thanks for answering the question.

I won't deny I have acted like a dick (mostly to other dicks) on many occasions. At the time chivalry was the 'main' game I played and for some reason people who ruined my time annoyed me more than they do in other games (which is weird because I have played plenty of league of legends xD). I am aware this negativity has escalated situations in the past and if that has offended or annoyed admins you do have my apologies.

Be that as it may, it still does not make me understand this particular ban. While the chat may suggest otherwise (mostly due to the inability to convey tone properly), I never cared/raged even remotely as hard as the chat would suggest. My in-game negativity was by choice, once again since I had little patience for people who are out to ruin the games of others. I probably crossed that definition at times as well, again, sorry if I did.

Getting to the main point now 2-3 months ago when most of this negativity occurred I had my fair share of arguments with the admins. But I have backed down on numerous occasions when asked by the admins, and have never received any real warning or punishment before. I always assumed this was because I largely react to negativity in the first place, and don't instigate myself most of the time. I guess I was wrong about your perspective on the matter. Don't get me wrong I realize the discussions led to some anger but such is the nature of arguments when peoples views and functionality enter the picture. Being somewhat of a pragmatist I took no offense to admins calling my views wrong, and assumed they did not take offense either. In retrospect it's a fair amount of assuming from my part, but it does not change my main issue with the current situation:

Going from no punishment or official warning to being banned permanently, especially in a time in which I don't take the game that serious anymore and I lay low, is something I do not understand. I have been an officer/admin in a fair share of guilds/communities but I have never seen issues handled in this manner. I feel it is highly unfair that annoyance towards me is building up and lingering in your back channels without communicating this to me, leading to an instant permanent ban after I come back from a break. Regardless of what you may think of me, I hope this reasoning makes sense to you as an admin.

Typing this I realize it's weird it took me 4 posts to get to the essence of my point, but so be it

Thanks for taking the time to read my two cents and feel free to change my mind.

[Muk]

Well usually it is a warning before a ban but it was Deadcandance that gave this ban so he will have to tell you whats going to happen and why he did it, unfortunately i don't think me or turbo can do much about it.

Personally i would have given a warning first like you have said.

[Jen]

I was in a game (a while back) where you publically criticized a recently joined admin and suggested they shouldn't be doing the admin job if they couldn't handle it - in your opinion.

IMO you're one of those people that constantly skirts rules often just sitting on the boundaries of what would be acceptable. Over my time both in game and remotely, I've seen you criticize the servers and various admins, their abilities to uphold the rules, the breaking of their own rules etc., typically speaking such comments never backed up with any evidence both from logged chat, server logs and recorded games.

You mention a dislike of trolls - to me you're one of the worst type of trolls. Not usually blatant enough for an outright ban but constantly belittling and berating.

If it were down to me I'd keep the ban, not for this specific issue but behaviour on the server in general. However that's just my opinion

btw it looks like the script that copies the bans to all servers isn't working.
Will try to see if I can get meowric to fix this while the fiend is on hols.

[Meowric]

hell hath no fury, like a ginger witch

also, the fiend is due back soon. I'm not touching stuff unless it's mega broken as the amount of interconnected scripts and programs running on those servers is stupendous

[DeadCanDance]

I really don't feel the need to be warning the same player over and over again against retaliation, since Babadiboopy has been warned multiple times before.
The other player who was involved in the "incident", said sorry and only referred a alleged kick in the spawn, but since you re not blocking him, you felt the need to Team kill him right away, for what i have stated. You could have simply asked me to spec x or y, instead of taking the matters into your own hands, as you usually do. And i ve seen this too many times, each time a accidental tk occurs, a misplaced random arrow by a archer, or each time a player sneezes next to you, gets a return kill, and if the admin doesn't immediately kick or ban someone you or Henk want to, its because its not "admin material"...
Why all that anger towards accidents and little in-game incidents? its all part of the game, and it will always occur specially on a 50 player server. As Muk as said we try our best, but we are playing along side and we cant watch everyone at the same time. Your general behavior and anger, as jen said "sitting on the boundaries of what would be acceptable", to me, its not acceptable anymore.
You cant break the rules yourself constantly and then "take the condescend road, that's not how it works m8", remember those words? well i do.
Your continuous admin harassment, insults on the other players - "cowards" "archer scum" (which is very annoying, specially in such a "friendly" server), and overall retaliation is that kind of attitude we dont welcome here, as Henk said: "Typical SM", thats right, zero tolerance for those who dont respect our "house".
Regarding the Ban, unless ruled by the probationary officer, its not gonna be lifted soon. Its nothing personal, i just think you have pushed it too far too many times, all the respect for you as a player, but SM server its not a anger deposit.

[Babadiboopy]

Thanks for taking the time to answer. I'll go over DeadCanDance's answer point by point a last time, so here goes nothing.

First of all I'd like point out again that the incident leading to my ban was the first time in two weeks after my break that I got even remotely involved in any shit, and I feel you misread the situation.
The russian guy was a troll deadcandance. You say you have logs, use them. There are many like them, constantly kicking people of ledges, bridges etc etc. This leads to damage/deaths/annoyance and since "it's only a kick" there is nothing I can do about it. The minute Turbomidget announced he left the server he started. He mad the first move (kicking me off the spawn) which is a direct violation of your rules. A sneaky troll who grabs his chance the second an admin leaves (a normal vote will never kick him, you know this, so he knows he is 'safe') pissed me off on what was already a bad day for me.
So yes I killed him for it. Against your retaliation rule but what else would you have me do? Trolls troll because it works and because they can. This is the way it works in all games. There was no admin online and vote kicks don't work, is it retaliation? Sure. Calling trolls out on their shit and making their trolling not work is what ultimately MIGHT stop them from doing it again. Not to mention doing nothing against me is effectively letting the troll win. Weighing this against your retaliation rule made me think it was worth it, and not unreasonable.
So I killed him, I let him kill me back and the matter was over for me. However he kept attacking and killing me throughout the game long after I stopped against him. He also tried to kick more people off the bridge in the second round. All your logs have to support this, because it's true. Later in that game you came online so I brought the matter to your attention (this was in the last round after more deaths by russian guy) instead of killing him again like the old me would do. In light of me deciding not to be a dick anymore on your servers and actually going your way about it the result is what pissed me off so much. I recognized and apologized for worse behavior so the fact that I received my first kick (so I thought, let alone a permaban) for this surprised me and those who played with me at the time. Again especially since you decided not to kick the russian guy (which is impossible according to your own rules) I feel your actions on the matter were heavily biased.

As for the general behavior "sneezing" part you are right to some extend, but I feel it's largely a straw man. I did retaliate to people, but not for random arrows and accidental TKs. Some TKs do annoy me, and I would certainly tell people to watch their swings or something like that, but would not kill them for it. As people who actually play with me know, I blame myself more often than others for FF because I have an aggressive (and greedy ) play style with a lot of weird movement.

Since this is all at least 2 months ago I can't remember every incident. I am sure I killed some people that were not the trolls I thought they were at the time and I apologized for that. The inability to kick people through the in game vote system (it got slightly better after they introduced the data) combined with an absence of admins (first months I started on your servers, it got better the last few months) built up a lot of annoyance, to the point where I chose to act against it. By the time admins started to show up more I guess my expectations of their abilities were too high, and my standards for behavior appeared to differ from yours.

(I'll get to the "boundaries of what would be acceptable" in a minute.)

I am aware of the hypocrisy in my actions (and in that last sentence ). However I do believe it was generally justified (as I said before I wrongly assumed you agreed on this). I largely react to rule breaking instead of instigating it (again, with probably some bad judgments along the way which I apologized for). For every game in which I caused a fuss there were a ton more games which everything was fine.
I can't remember when I said what you claim I said and in what context I said it so it's pointless for me to talk about that more specifically.

Continuous admin harassment is frankly a large hyperbole. There are admins who do a good job I feel, and there are some who could take it more seriously. It's a matter of opinion. Since an admins word is law, regardless of whether he/she is making any sense at all, I picked my battles carefully. There have been heated arguments over admin performance and fundamental debates on rules and behavior, however I am confident I had constructive or logical arguments behind each time I brought up an issue.
I always laugh at people attacking admins randomly since it's an easy way to get kicked/banned. I would not start a fuss with an admin unless I had a solid reason backed up with logical arguments, and like I said before I wrongly assumed no real offense would be taken in these discussions. If you can show me a log that shows I irrationally attacked admins I'd be surprised, and I would apologize for that if it were true.
The negativity associated with these arguments has largely come from other players arguing alongside me, which I also pointed out before. If my harassment was even remotely as severe as you claim it is I don't see how I have never had a real warning / kick / short ban before.

As for the archer coward thing, yes that was childish However I never said it with any rage/anger towards them. It was more trollish friendly banter. If 75% of your deaths is consistently caused by 4 people hiding in the back they might annoy you as much as they annoy me. I do not mean that as an excuse. But like I said it was never more than friendly banter between enemies for me, and the archers themselves have rarely taken offense to it. Mostly they like it because they mistake it for rage, which makes them feel better about their kills. Third parties took more offense to this than anyone else. Like I said it was childish, and if it has offended you I am sorry, but I doubt it has. However since I started playing less chiv I stopped doing this as your logs will once again prove so I see no reason to dwell on this.

Saying my behavior was sitting on the boundaries of what would be acceptable is a correct assessment. I am a pragmatist more than a rager, so this was by choice. I realize this caused annoyance. I knew some admins would not like me for it. However a simple "I know what you are doing Baba, stop it now or get banned" would have sufficed. It never occurred to me that you guys would go straight for the permaban instead of communicating your opinion on the matter. Like I said before even the most heated arguments have never led to a single kick or serious warning, and I have also backed off on your request more than once.

The fact is you never gave me a chance to reform or better myself, something I have never seen in any game or gaming community. I know I can, and I feel I have given you enough evidence to show you I can. I feel my reasoning within this thread has shown that to start with, but I know actions speak louder than words. Since I started playing chivalry casually I have done so without a single incident. I still get annoyed by the same things but this time I chose to let it go, like I do in all other games.

I am asking you one last time to lift the ban. I feel that between my apologies and my arguments in this thread it is not unreasonable to ask for a second chance. Being banned for over a week has given me your 'enough is enough' message, which I always assumed to get in another fashion. I have shown you I can behave, and I would like to continue to do so.

[TurboMidget]

It bugs me that it's always someone else's fault and in contrast there's only a very small amount of apologies coming from you. In your last message you even tried to make your apology seem redundant. This is probably part of the attitude most of the admins here have come to hate. The word narcissist also comes to mind.

As for the warnings, you've been given several while I was there, some even given by me.

Rereading this after a few days abroad and reading Deads reply, I think it's safe to assume the ban isn't going to be lifted. Despite its improvements, your attitude remains a problem and because of that, most admins, if not all, are against lifting the ban. This includes yours truly.

Do try to learn something from this piece of internet drama, because it's human nature to dislike people who act like dicks, not just SM nature.

[MonkeyFiend]

well, since everyone has had a say, I guess this thread is done.

closing.