I just saw Skuta's photoshop. Now they are taking images of user's homes and showing a helicopter blowing them up. All this time, but no facts, we are much too good to actually post a rebuttal. That is funny. More content for my site. I wonder what users will think when they see that Fart admins posting this type of stuff about blowing up people's houses. Thanks Skuta you are just helping me.

Only a child is not capable of seeing the difference between someone drawing out of proportion helicopters with guns blowing up a house and what they would actually do in reality. The fact is that skuta wouldn't do something like that but we all find your bitching and moaning quite funny so we're enjoying it even more when you come back with a reply like that because I think it touched you in a special place.

Basically you are the next gunners, everything you say wont be taken with a shred of care or acknowledgement (at least from myself) you're being a douche and you're only continuing with this to spite the clan (the following is a quote from yourself but the quote thingy isn't working...)

''My ultimate goal is to either bring the Fart server down or receive an apology and an unban. Will I ever play on Fart again, of course not, I would not give them the time of day, but I am obviously doing this on principle.'' (3rd sentence on your fat rant at the bottom of page 2)

There are way too many servers still out there for you to play on with ease. Stop being such a little girl gunners, and jog on. BB.

Reading your post I have had similar happen to myself (banned from a server for suspicion aimbotting with a grenade launcher) after making an appeal the admin still felt that I used an aimbot. Stupid, but there we go, off I went and checked back from time to time until gleefully seeing the servers and clan had failed and gone their separate ways.

You seem to misunderstand my point regarding sending people to the server. Obviously your friends may trust your opinion, however the site is obviosuly aimed at people who don't know you and therefore have no opinion on your judgement, so my previous comment still stands: if you're convinced the server is bad, send people there to see for themselves and if it really is bad they will leave and possibly even add their support to your site.

Your analogy regarding forming opinions from the news - news stations do try to deliver the news in an unbiased fashion. Your site can't be unbiased.. it would be like trying to get advice on cancer from a tobacco company. Silence doesn't imply guilt, it can imply many other things including apathy or perhaps just nto wishing to fan flames on someone who's made a hate site. I chose to ignore your side of the story as none of it has corroborating factual evidence to back it up and would do likewise for fart since i wasn't commenting on the content of your ban specifically.

The adage of no such thing as bad publicity is a quote from an old irish author, it's a common saying.

Now with regards to invading yoru privacy address etc., - you did this to yoruself, the website you registered includes your name and address information and is publically avaialble. Just go to somewhere like whois.sc and put it in. You can't suggest that something you've made publically available is in fact an invasion of your privacy. Even if it were, those action have no linking implciations to other actions such as the ban itself.

The fact you've presented... mentioning screenshots, there isn't anything definitive there that couldn't be explained with it's own spin by either side involved.

Again the block of text regarding your previous server admin.. is irrelevent since your issues were with another clans server that you have no power or say over, regardless of what rules you implemented in your servers.

Now as far as the bit about skuta posting your address and suggesting scare tactics and implication by association, your final satement is poorly veiled threat: come to house, lethal force directed at trespassers (besides, this doesn't work if you invited them there ) - essentially suggesting if they came by invite to your house, you may in fact kill them is by far the most petty, childish and frankly pathetic statement I've read on a forum in a long time. I've seen that type of thing blurted forth from kids trying to look hard, but for an adult to come out with that type of threat is just really sad.

I should also point out if they were really arsed about your site and its google ranking, a site dedicated to the abuse of a group/existing site would be against the terms and conditions of your hosting and they could easily have it removed.

and


This is incorrect. You started your "30+ thread" because you were, in fact, kicked for stat padding. I read that entire thread at the time was posted, and I quote the subject line you started it with: "Kick for stat padding - can I get an explaination?". You said you had a copy of your post, so why don't you go ahead and put it up so we can all see those exact words? I understand how helpful it is to your case to claim that you were never kicked before your ban, but that is clearly not the truth. And in all seriousness, why would you engage in a long discussion about whether your activities are allowed if you weren't kicked or warned?



I have no doubt that you did in fact look up the rules. However, Blackhawk behaviour aside, I personally witnessed your entire squad spawn raping the south gas station(without intent to capture the flag, as I described earlier) at various points during your stay on the server, both before and after your kick for padding and your "30+ thread". Since you are apparently suggesting that after your kick and at the time of your "30+ thread" that you looked up the rules, you would have seen the rule prohibiting "Spawnkilling without intention to capture flag". And now that you claim to have been an admin in the past, I'm sure you know as well as I do that it's quite common for servers to have rules against spawn raping.
Since you went to so much trouble to look up the rules:
1. When were you planning to tell your regular squadmates about the spawn raping rule?
2. Do you realize that this spawn raping by itself is bannable without regard to any other issues?
3. Can you explain why you(and all of your squadmates) continued to perform that activity beyond that point in time at which you claim to have studied the rules?



If you truly believe that haw8 is innocent, then why not put a section for him on your site to rally against all those servers that banned him? Is it too much trouble to do that since you yourself aren't banned on those servers? Don't you realize that if all those servers banned haw8 for being "too good", they would ban your group for being "too good" if you ever decided to play on any of them? After all, it's like you said: "Walking away is the coward approach. If everyone took that tact, then how would any injustices be fixed, people would be too busy stepping to fight for righteous resolutions to problems."

On the other hand, if you do not have direct personal proof of haw8's innocence(and really, you cannot possibly know that he's innocent, as you have no more way of disproving that he hacks then I have of proving he does), then why would you risk your credibility by lumping his ban in with your own? Obviously, you are turning the fact that FART doesn't tell hackers how they were caught into fuel for a conspiracy theory in order to support your own cause, nothing more. But....if that's not true, then can we expect to see a "Free haw8!" section on your website?

If you actually read the post on the Fart forum, you would know that I was never personally kicked from the server, the people that I was in the chopper were kicked because others in the back of the chopper were dropping mines out constantly. We were not doing anything wrong, that is why I asked for the clarification at the time. If you read my post you also know that it was civil and that I was actually trying to legitimately get information.

The round that we were banned on was when we were USMC, so your assertion that we were banned for spawn raping has little merit. If that is why we were banned, why no kick? If you look on the Fart forum, that is only a kick, why the ban? Did you witness us not shooting at people until they shot at us? Is it raping if you don't attack and are just sitting? Did you see me in the tank, or someone else? I doubt you saw me, as JP usually took the tank up there.

As far as Haw8, obviously I don't have all the details, so I am not going to tie my destiny to his, but as an former admin, we did not kick/ban people for hacking without proof. Again if Fart wants to run things that way, it is their decision, I will just bring it out in the open.

Seeing as I own the web server, I don't think the site will be removed by anyone. There are plenty of other sites that expose the truth out there and mine is just another.

Skutaboy, if you come to my house, you are not invited or welcome, just to get that straight. There is no thin veil, I will exercise my rights to stop you or anyone entering the property. 7.62x39 style.

I didn't say your post was uncivil.

I also did not say that you were banned for spawn raping. I already said before that for all I know they didn't even notice your spawn raping. I am simply saying that you COULD have been banned for spawn raping even if nothing else you did was brought into question. I am also saying that despite your claims that you read the rules in detail, you continued to spawn rape. And if not you, then "JP", as you say. I especially like the way you say that JP "usually" took the tank up there, but you ask "did you not witness US not shooting at people?". Which is it? Are you claiming that JP was up there alone or was "US"(meaning you with him) up there together? And if you do claim he was doing it alone, do you believe it's OK to let your friends risk banning by breaking rules you know about and they don't? And if you are going to claim that sitting on a spawn point and not shooting people until they shoot at you makes it no longer count as spawn raping...that's ridiculous. "Hi, I'm here to steal your chopper, put your hands up and let us take it and we won't spawn rape you?"

And again, as far as haw8 goes, you continue to imply that he was banned without proof. In the first part of your statement about him you admit you "do not have all the details", but then in the second part of your statement you speak as if it were an established fact that he was banned without proof and that you are just "bringing it out in the open". If you don't have all the details, then you can only speak of it as a possibility, not an established fact, wouldn't you agree?

As a former admin yourself, are you saying that it's a good idea to lay out your proof and methods to the players you ban so that they can learn from their mistakes and not get caught in the future; not to mention all the other people reading the ban appeal forum that might be considering purchasing some cheats?

um, narp - a dedicated managed host (like peer1) still requires you to abide by an acceptable usage policy that has things about not harassing people etc.,

I know this from having to be careful with the servers I own in datacentres - I may physically own (not even renting) the hardware and therefore can do with it as I may, but if I break the datacentres AUP, they will just drop it fom the switches.

@skuta: sry, I've uninstalled bf2 after the 1.5 patch

Ive given up reading this now its not an essay competition

Monkeyfiend, Thanks for the heads up, I will check with Peer 1 and see if this is a violation of their policy. I doubt that it is as there are plenty of consumer protection sites that publish similar content. What does narp mean?

Maniac, the explanation is simple, JP was the squad leader, we would take Power Plant as a squad, get the tank and then he would go up there. This was his strategy not mine, I did not tell him to do that, I learned it from him. I am sure I did it too when JP was not there, that is why I said usually. Rarely did I play on Fart without JP. Again, if what we were doing was breaking the rules, why not a warning or kick? I answer you questions directly, no how about you do the same? If you say we were not banned for this, why are you even talking about this irrelevant information. Per the rules on the Fart clan website, that would only be a kickable offense. Never did any admin tell us not to do that, and several times there was a Fart member in our squad while this was going on. If Haw8 was banned for hacking with proof, why was he banned, then unbanned, then banned again? Or is that question too top secret and would expose too much confidential hacking catcher info. Did the proof get submitted to PB Bans and is he banned everywhere now? You can try to justify Fart's action all you want, but at the end of the day I believe they are in the wrong.

I'll answer you directly, how should I know why you weren't kicked, warned, or even banned for spawn raping? You know I'm not an admin, so you know I don't know, and as I have said twice now, for all I DO know, they did not even notice you doing it. Why am I talking about spawn raping when it is so "irrelevant", then? Because you yourself are dredging up things not related to your own situation in order to induce doubt, and assassinate Fart's character in order to discredit them, which you hope, ostensibly, will force people to assume that you are right and side with you. I am simply demonstrating that you are willing to break rules in hopes of showing that you are no saint yourself, to use your own medicine(character assassination) against you. How's that for a direct answer? And via the responses I'm getting from you, you are not claiming not to have read the rule, you are not claiming you didn't know, I'm not even sure you're trying to defend yourself at all except you keep saying "why not a warning, why not a warning why not a warning"? Yes, I'm aware that spawn raping is listed as a kickable offense and not bannable until "committed more than once" and yes I realize you are implying that it can't be "committed more than once" until you have received your first warning. It now seems very clear to me that in your mind, you have done nothing wrong until you are presented with a formal warning; and while that was not the answer I expected you to give; I guess you're entitled to your own philosophies. Very well, if that's your explanation of the spawn raping, then fine, I have nothing more to say on the matter.

Lastly, I am not attempting to justify Fart's actions. I'm pretty sure I never actually said anything that had anything to do with expressing an opinion on your ban one way or the other, and I don't intend to; either now or in the future. My goal was simply to do something to get in the way of your character assassination techniques. Hopefully that's a direct enough answer for you, but now that I've made my point, you can continue with your crusade without me.

I must say, though, that I don't think many of these fine =SM= folks will think very highly of someone that doesn't follow rules until they've tested the waters and gotten a warning.

This is why I often think that even bothering with a warning is a waste of time. There are just too many people out there who use their warning as a free pass. Breaking the rules because they know until the warning has been issued, they can get away with it. Only stopping once a real threat (such as a ban) is presented to them. If it's something like spawn raping, or something as globally common a rule as that, their should be no warning given. Anyone being given a warning, is most likely a problem causer anyways, so I say just get rid of them. After all, you pay for the server and they don't! They are just making more work for you......

EDIT - of course when the game first came out I didn't feel this way. But this late in BF2's life, there really isn't any excuse for not knowing server rules (unless they are obscure ones)..

Raile,

I think that is an interesting take, but have you considered this: many server do have obscure rules or certainly one could make the argument that some servers have gray areas in the interpretation of the rules. This was even discussed on the 30+ thread post I mention previously. Now take maniac's point of spawn rape, is it spawn rape if we take the tank to south gas, in an attempt to not only steal the BH, but also cap the flag thus giving our side a double advantage? At what point is it considered spawn rape? Does a certain time have to pass that no forward progress is being made, what would actually be the determining factor. Would we even need human admins if the rules were iron clad? My point is this, one man's spawn rape is another man's valid strategy for enhancing his teams chances of winning. My recollection was that for the most part the flag was taken or attempted to be taken after the BH was stolen. Seems like a valid strategy to me, and if I was either warned or kicked for it first, it would have stopped.

Now what does that have to do with your post: warnings are useful tools for the admins to communicate to the users that their behavior is not acceptable. The user can argue the behavior at a latter date if he thinks the rules are not being broken, but the admin's wishes should be observed by the user and the user should use the prescribed channels to air his grievances if he thinks his actions do not violate server rules. The kick after the warning can be necessary to get their attention as sometimes the scroll goes by to fast or you are in the heat of battle and just don't see it. No excuse for ignoring a VOIP warning from an admin. Obviously the ban is for people who got kicked multiple times and just can't get the hint. Even the ban generally has a prescribed path to remedy if the user wants to get the ban lifted.

There are obviously exceptions to the rule, like TKing for aircraft/vehicle/armor that are blatant, but even in my day of being an admin, I only kicked for that even though it was on the lower left corner every time the map loaded. I am not sure I have ever heard a valid reason to TK that way and the only real explanation I have ever gotten is he did it to me first.

Do you think any of this is valid?

ahh subjective interpretation of rules.. I think the old rules that we've used on BF2 and the new ones for BC2 are written in a way to cope with this as much as possible. But for things that are subjective e.g. the servers that say "NO BUNNYHOPPING!" - just how many jumps over what period of time consitutes bunnyhopping? Obviously rules of this sort are open to bias from admins.

To be hoenst we operated no baserape on karkand.. untiol we added automated tools that warned and kicked atuomatically depending on distance, prior to this it was admin discretion, however we did include a full breakdown of the rules including maps etc., on the website. I personally have kicked people without warning - the rules were on the loading banner and ingame spam, often they came back and did it again.

The exception was low ranked players where I may have warned first if I thought there was a chance they were unfamiliar with rules like this.

To be honest we never gave VOIP warnings - we operate from the UK and as such always had a contingent of players who couldn't speak english.

However ultimately if someone is kicked by an admin then the arbitration still has to come from within the clan rather than an independant source (although this makes me think the use of a non-clan independant arbitrator might be useful in disputes - will discuss with =SM=), but in the end the ones who pass the judgement are the clan and if they uphold the ban.

Now the important point of your post above is that you're saying you would kick/ban based on certain criteria, however the clan who run the server in question may not have the same criteria - they may act upon the same offences but how they act upon them may be different to the way you would. They might beleive banning on a first offence is completely appropriate (hell, we always banned for 1st offence on racism and we only lifted 1 ban for that in 3 years) and just because you wouldn't run a server in that manner doesn't necessarily mean that they're wrong. Just a different way of doing things.

However you can't exepect them to accept your opinions of how a server should be run as being correct, so ultimately

The answer to this post, is quite simply, that I am a gamer first, and don't have time to argue every single admin decision I make. If you have ever played Karkand IO then you know that admining is a full time job. So yes, I will kick people without warning, and leave it up to them to figure out what they did wrong. If they want to come argue it in the forums after, then let them. But I won't spend my entire game admining and not playing. (now you do get guys like Monkey who are good enough to write their own automated warnings/bans etc, but there are few people doing that).

And as Monkey said, if people don't like that, then they won't come back.. if they don't pay for the server, then they don't really have any rights.

To add to this.. I am usually the person who argues against making obscure server rules, for this exact reason. They are way too hard to police, and I am unwilling to put the time in. So in kicking people without warning, I would only be doing it when they broke very common server rules.

i like where this is going which is probably nowhere, but gives me something to read while in work

Not really related to the topic other than its =FaRT= and one of UneManArmy's videos..

Looks like a number of =FaRT='s have moved on to BC2 as well!
Lots of =FaRT= members killed in 0neManArmy's new BC2 video!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9SIDceKbnE

i wonder if i was in that video? bastard